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The Mass Isn’t Your Playlist.

• The Cristeros • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Why does the Church care so much about liturgical music—and why isn’t the Mass built around our preferences?

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¡Viva Cristo Rey y Santa María de Guadalupe!

In this episode of CristeroCast, we continue our conversation with Fr. Mitchell Brown, author of Praying the Mass in Lent, and dive into one of the most controversial topics in Catholic life: music at Mass.

Why does the Church give priority to Scripture and chant?

What are the propers of the Mass and why have most Catholics never heard of them?

Is praise and worship music wrong… or just meant for somewhere else?

We also look at the Cristeros formation rhythm and talk about relationship—how authentic friendship with God is the foundation for real relationships with our wives, families, and brothers in Christ.

We cover:

-What the Introit actually is and why it matters
-Why the Church prefers Scripture and chant in the liturgy
-The difference between devotional music and liturgical music
-Why taste has nothing to do with worship
-How authentic relationships grow from prayer, humility, and time


Welcome And Liturgy Hot Take

SPEAKER_02

The liturgy director in my first seminary, he was giving a talk on liturgical music, and he said, No one in their right mind gets involved in liturgical music. But thankfully, I'm not in my right mind.

What The GIRM Actually Is

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to ChristeroCast, the official podcast of the Christeros Catholic Men's Movement. Uh, today I'm once again joined by Father Mitchell Brown of Sacred Heart Cathedral here in Gallup. And Father Brown is the author of Praying the Mass in Lent, the Linton Reflection series that uh we as the Christeros and others that are not Christeros have been going through this Lent. We have our daily reflection podcast. Um and last week we talked a little bit about prayer. And I think this week we're just gonna keep going through the book. So welcome, Father. Thank you for having me again. Uh Father, we uh in the Christeros, in addition to um our daily prayer routine, as we mentioned before, which is the morning offering, a prayer of the Holy Spirit, uh, Marian prayer, either the Angelus or the Rosary or both, um, uh an entrustment to Jesus through Mary throughout the day, and then a nightly examin. We also have what we call a weekly formation cadence where we start with identity in the first week of the month, where we really focus on our identity as sons of the Father, brothers of Christ, and then uh go into because as we talked about last time, without identity, you can't have relationship, you can't have mission. And then for the next two weeks, we focus more on relationship. First, with relationship with our families and the greater parish, relationship with our brothers in the third week, which we kind of have been deeming Christ Christero Sunday. And then in the fourth week, we finally go into mission where we go out into the world and and be missionary disciples. Um, so I wanted to do two things today. One is to run through the week two of your book a little bit, some of the topics that you hit, then also talk about relationship and what it means to have um a Christ-centered relationship with your family and the parish and others. Yeah, it'd be great. So uh let's go right for the hot take. Um this week was a really interesting week because you uh start with the introit and you bring forward general instructions of the Roman Missal. What is that exactly, the germ?

SPEAKER_02

So that's the basic set of rubrics that the church has on how to celebrate the Mass.

SPEAKER_01

And um is that like the red book that I see you following along through in the Mass?

SPEAKER_02

Or that's the missile. So that has all the prayers and everything. And at the very beginning, there's the general introduction, which is all the rubrics of how to celebrate Mass, the way to set up the church, different uh things that we have to keep in mind that are disciplinary things for the church and how to approach the sacraments, especially uh in this case the sacrament of the Eucharist.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell So it seems like this week you were drawing a lot from the germ. And is the germ, is it is it kind of guidelines or is it rules to follow? Like how do you think of the germ?

SPEAKER_02

There's a mix. Some things are prescribed, so they the church says do X, Y, and Z. Some things are proscribed, so it says do not do X, Y, and Z. And then something sometimes there are options left up to the priest based on different scenarios that might come up, who who might be present at mass or who's not present at mass. So that there's a section, for example, of the if the priest is by himself or with only one person. Um, so there are certain instances where the priest has uh leeway, if you will, uh, but most of the time it's it's envisioning a normal Sunday Mass in a parish and how to go about celebrating a mass that way.

Introit And Entrance Antiphons

SPEAKER_01

So you start with the introit. What is the introit?

SPEAKER_02

So the introit is also called the entrance antiphon, and it's usually a passage of scripture which kind of sets the tone for the day, if you will. Um, so it'll be a verse or a passage from a prophet, a psalm, maybe the gospel, which helps us to figure out what is the mass about today. And not in the sense of reducing the mass to a theme, but helping us to remember there's only so much we can take in. And so the church is in a sense honing us to say, let's focus on this today. And so that simple verse, that simple phrase is at the beginning, as the procession is coming into the church, either in a very simple format or in in large format on a Sunday with servers and the cross and candles. It uh accompanies that procession as we intro it, as we go into the church.

SPEAKER_01

So that's very different than I think a lot of parishes that have a hymn or uh a song or or what whatever it might be as the entrance hymn, right? I mean, I've been to, I mean, sacred, I know what you're talking about because we have it at Sacred Cathedral where uh our our organist choir person kind of chants the entrance hymn and or the introit. And um can you explain like the difference between like an entrance hymn and the introit and why one might take precedent over the other?

Hymns Versus Antiphons

SPEAKER_02

Sure. So I'll preface this saying I know liturgical music is one of the most contentious things when it comes to liturgy. That's why I said this is the hot take episode. Yeah. The the liturgy director in my first seminary, he was giving a talk on liturgical music, and he said, no one in their right mind gets involved in liturgical music. But thankfully, I'm not in my right mind. So I think there are a few things we have to keep in mind. First, uh, what does the church envision for something, right? And so we we have to keep in mind the general instruction is not necessarily church teaching. There's a lot of discipline there, there's practicality, all of these kind of things. But there is a heavy tradition on having the psalms at mass, having scripture at mass. The mass is much more scriptural than we often think. We may think of the readings that happen, the gospel, but so many of the prayers, so many of the things that happen or that are supposed to happen in mass are taken directly out of scripture. And so that first element to keep in mind is we're there taking in the words of scripture, taking in the word of God, uh at least part of it as it comes to us through the written words of God and scripture. So the introit, later on, the offertory antiphon, the communion antiphon, these are all taken to us and given to us as a gift in in the words of Christ, sometimes in the words of the psalmist. And that word of God has to take precedence over our word. I love hymns, I love bluegrass gospel music. These kind of things can be great for personal prayer, uh, but most of the time they're words of men. And even the best words of men pale in comparison to the word of God. So having that um gift given to us, even in the first words of mass, is very important to take that and to receive it. The second is the word of God applies to everybody in every case, in in every place and time. Now we may find something more moving at one time or another, but the word of God is living and effective. It it applies to all of us. Even the best hymn doesn't always do that. And an example why is with the music. So there are wonderful, beautiful hymns of praise, uh whether in the in the ancient tradition of hymnity or in more recent hymns or praise and worship hymns, bluegrass hymns. Um, but these ones are very lively and uplifting, but that may not be how everyone is experiencing mass. That's not how they're feeling in that moment, right? Then there are other ones as we're hearing very often in Lens that are like dirges, very solemn and somber. But that also doesn't apply to the way everyone is feeling at Mass. Chant, for example, on the other hand, uh, it's neither happy nor sad. It's meant to forge this middle ground, if you will, that applies to everyone. Taking the words of scripture, giving a particular tried and true method of singing it that helps everyone enter into it. So a mother that's just had a new a new child, a family's welcoming that child in there very joyful, may not be able to enter into a sad hymn very well. Or on the on the opposite, uh a family that's grieving the loss may not be able to sing praise to the holiest in the height with all their gusto, right? So I think the the words of God help apply to every situation. And then the music that usually accompanies these things also applies more broadly than some of the hymnity that we might hear at different points of mass.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell And those so the intro, the oftory, the communion, are those specific to that day's mass?

SPEAKER_02

Aaron Powell It varies. So in in Lent, for example, uh there are different antiphons almost daily. Uh but in ordinary time, for example, it might carry through a whole week. So the ones that are there on Sunday would be could be used at every uh daily mass, unless there's a saint or something like that that comes up.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell So I know a common criticism I've heard of this is, well, I know how to sing on eagle's wings, I don't know how to sing the introit. What do you say to that? I mean that the uh I you know it's just the lady up in the choir loft singing or chanting this introit. Now I would say like in our parish, as we've gotten you more used to it, almost all of these end with a glory bee, and everybody could chant the glory bee part. And oftentimes the kind of response portion of it, after you hear it once, just like at the responsory psalm and the and the readings, you uh in the liturgy of the word, you can respond. But I do understand that, you know, the church is a lot quieter on the entrance than it used to be when we were singing the the happy clappy music.

Why Scripture Takes Precedence

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So it's not required that people sing. And honestly, a lot of people don't sing the hymns either. So it's not like they would be singing if those were all we were using. Um but it is true, Gregorian chant is not normal for us. It it does take practice and time to learn how to do that. Even simple melodies can sometimes take a while to practice and and really enter into. But the church, as a good mother and a good teacher, does not simply let us stay where we are. She wants to call us to something higher. And so, whether that be through the prayers or through the way that we sing, the music that we use, even the use of Latin, for example, all of these things are not there to oppress us or to make us feel distant. They're meant to help us rise to a challenge. And at the same time, not everyone that's singing the music itself is is even entering into it, right? This is all about the matter of heart. Someone can be absolutely silent all through mass and still enter into the prayer. Now, we should repo we do the responses, we should uh have our parts, but it's about the heart and not just the external um application of these things. And I think a good example of that is with chant. Not everyone's going to be able to sing it, but you can still pray along with it. You can you can feel it in its in its own special kind of rhythm and these kind of things that are it's very different. It's unique. We're not gonna hear that at a at a concert, we're not gonna hear that at a at a football game or in an elevator. It's unique to the liturgy, and so we know when we hear these kind of things, we're doing something different or doing something special.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell So these are what you'd normally call like the propers of the mass, is that right?

SPEAKER_02

Aaron Powell Yeah, the propers are the the things that change every day. Okay. So whether that be the antiphons, the readings, those are all proper to a particular day's mass.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell And when you're talking about this, you're talking about chant and chanting uh uh these are they in English or Latin or they can be in both. Yeah, we have we have options for both. Um so you said that you like bluegrass music, Christian uh gospel bluegrass music, and others, I I assume. Um so you don't just hate all forms of of praise and worship music.

Chant As A Universal Middle Way

SPEAKER_02

No, and I I I've benefited a lot from that kind of music at different times. Um I think we have to distinguish, though, between on one hand, devotional religious music and liturgical music on the other. Devotional religious can be very personal, it can be very emotive sometimes, which can be good or bad. Um, but these are things that we might want to fit to our mood, right? We might want to take something that's either going to amplify our mood or change it. Uh, but those are all very personal things. And to be honest, a lot of them are also at concerts. They're they're not specific to moments of prayer. Uh whereas liturgical music, uh, it may sound circular, but liturgical music is music for the liturgy, right? It's music that has its proper home in the celebration of the sacraments, in the public worship of the church. And that's a very different thing because there we're not trying to conform the music to ourselves, we're being conformed to what the music says. And that's what what I was saying earlier, that this is the word of God. We're not changing it to fit what I feel that day. We have to be conformed to Him. And so when it comes to worship, we don't want to just do what we want because we don't know how God's supposed to be worshipped. We can't do something like that on our own. But God knows very well how He should be worshipped and He's shown us through Christ, through the church. And so entering into what the church asks of us is recognizing the liturgy is something that goes before us. It's a gift that is being given to us that we must receive on its own terms. As soon as we start messing with that, we risk losing the out on the glory of God and our own salvation. So while bluegrass and praise and worship can have wonderful, uh, wonderful moments of prayer for us, and they can they can even help elucidate the gospel in some ways for us. But they're they're very often, I think, more about personal prayer than about liturgical public prayer.

SPEAKER_01

So And you talk about this in in in this week of your book too or in your reflections, but what exactly makes liturgical music versus say praise and worship music? Yeah, so that because all these things at one point, right, started out probably as more popular hymns that some at different times were brought into the church. So something had to set these things apart. Like some of these were properly brought in, you know, even 1500 years ago into the into the worship, and others were not. Like, how did they distinguish and what makes a good liturgical good liturgical music?

SPEAKER_02

So again, it's circular, but liturgical music is music for the liturgy that was made for the liturgy in a sense. So, for example, the Psalms are not only from scripture, but they've been chanted in the liturgy for thousands of years going back to the Jewish temple. Yes, some of them for were for King David's coronation or King Solomon's coronation, or when they came back from battle or something. Um, the fact that they're scripture makes a big difference. But when we come to something, for example, like the hymns of St. Ambrose, he wrote beautiful and wonderful hymns for every day of the week for a lot of different seasons. So did St. Gregory the Great. Um, but those never, in fact, in the church until very recently, hymnity was not part of the Mass. It was part of the Liturgy of the Hours, the Divine Office. And they functioned there much like the intro does at Mass to help set the tone for that time of prayer. But when it came to Mass, the high point of our worship, the source and summit, the climax, the apex, the church went directly to Scripture. So again, these hymns that are used now, sometimes they're even very good interpretations of scripture or applications of a psalm or something. Going right to the source is where that where the church has us in that moment, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell So I was thinking of when I was in high school, you know, when you're in high school, your emotions are all over the place and you're trying to fig figure out your life as an adult. And we went to these Stubenville retreats over the summer, and I was always impressed as a more, I'd say, liturgically conservative family. Both my parents are converts. And um I was impressed that at these Stubenville conferences or retreats, their liturgy was always like incredibly uh wort worshipful, like it's very it was in some ways very conservative. You know, they're uh especially the time we're known as like the kind of charismatic community, their liturgy was was very beautiful and proper. We also had like, you're saying, we had like some concerts with some praise and worship music. I remember there was also a Eucharistic procession that was really powerful to me was sort of this emotional praise and worship type of music. Is that proper, like in a in a Eucharistic procession? Is that the type of thing you're talking about? Like an ad, like you know, if you have a praise and worship adoration or something like that.

Are Propers For The Day?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think there are different uh, you know, the church's liturgy is quite broad. We we think of mass mostly, but the celebration of the sacraments, eucharistic adoration, uh, there is quite a broad range of liturgy. With the with regard to the mass, it's the most highly regulated, if you will, on what we should or shouldn't be using. Um but I think once we, you know, meet the requirements of the church, we have some leeway in there. So for example, later on in the book, when we get to the communion antiphon, it says a hymn may be used after the communion antiphon. But it doesn't really define any more than that hymnity, right? Again, it should conform to the the truth, it should conform to the word of God in scripture and tradition. But even at Mass, there is some moments for those those kind of communities, right, that that are used to praying like that. I think the danger comes in when we impose something that people aren't used to without any sort of education, without any sort of formation. But then there are other moments that are uh more broad, like adoration, right? That adoration has very little about how to do it. You start it and you end it, and there's a lot of time for prayer in the middle. Um, and the beginning and ending are regulated, they're rubricized. But in the middle, there's a lot of time for silent prayer. You could pray the rosary, you could pray with scripture, you could pray with music. And I think in those moments, that's a beautiful time when personal and public prayer can come together, and music can really be helpful for that.

Can The People Sing Chant?

SPEAKER_01

I think of um, so my kind of favorite praise and worship guy is Brother Isaiah. He's a CFR. He has, I mean, little litany where he takes a song from a Sisters of Life prayer and puts it to music. He has the Anima Christi and different different things like that. And they're just great. And every night, um, when I'm putting my three-year-old and my 18-month old to bed, they ask, like, Brother Isaiah? And they kind of sing themselves to sleep with this beautiful praise and worship music. Um, and I remember that he did a adoration where I wasn't, I mean, I only saw the videos of it, but where he played some of this music there, and it's just it just seemed beautiful and praiseworthy. So I could see that that being helpful there. But I also think of I probably wasn't as well formed in my musical tastes in high school. I mean, to be fair, I mostly listened to rap music and country music, so I was definitely not formed in my in my musical tastes. Um, but uh now that I've had a broader experience, my appreciation of things like chant and classical music and other and other types of beautiful music has really increased. And I wonder, had I been exposed to that in high school, yeah, I yeah, I got a great experience at that student retreat with the praise and worship songs that were kind of the you know, jars of clay type of thing. But what if I had been exposed to some beautiful chant there too? That maybe move me just as much or more.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, and that and that's something important, right? Tastes has nothing, have nothing to do with the liturgy, right? I can't impose something on the liturgy simply because I like this music or I like this vestment. We have to be like the good steward who brings the old and the new and and presents that to the people of God within what the church asks of us and what the church allows, right? Um there are certain things that I like, but I try not to impose what I like just because I like it. If there's liturgical reason or theological reason, that's a different thing because that's beyond me. But especially when it comes to music, I think too people too many times we can settle for what we like instead of what the church likes or what the church asks of us, which is again calling us to something greater, something outside of ourselves instead of just what I prefer. Um so those preferences can be dangerous. But at the same time, with chant, right, the church has a preference for chant, but we may not prefer that. We may not even enjoy listening to it. There is a merit to obedience, but at the same time, it does take formation. So I'm not expecting parishes, whether they listen to this or they read the council documents or whatever, to all of a sudden stop and change to chant. They'll have rebellions all over the country because it does take time to appreciate these things and enter into them well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'll say though, you know, again, like I mentioned last time, we're the poorest diocese in the country. We are the poorest cathedral by far in the country. It's not even close, I'm pretty sure. Um, we have no money for a musical choir or anything else. And if we can do it, then so can it's the Frank Sinatra. If you could do it here, you could do it anywhere.

SPEAKER_02

It's certainly possible. I would just, you know, I would want the formation to be there with it.

SPEAKER_01

No, that makes sense. And I think you and Father Keller did a really good job of that. You explained, no, no, this is what the church instructs us to do, this is how they're tied in. And I do remember, you know, when we first first had this, you had people leave and they said, Well, I liked my guitar music and I liked this and that. And um, and there was a little bit of a decline, even after you did some great uh Father Keller did some great uh formation on it. But now, if you go into the cathedral, it's more packed than it's ever been. It's I mean, and and you're talking to people from all walks of life. You know, we're in the middle of the reservation, you got Navos in there, you got Pueblo Indians in there, you got uh Anglos in there, you got Hispanics in there, you got every everybody you can imagine is is in the pews and it's prayerful.

Devotional Music Versus Liturgical Music

SPEAKER_02

It's and that's the beauty of something like whether it's chant or or more proper liturgical music using something like the propers or whatever like this, it applies to all those people. Whereas English hymnity would cut out so many of the people in the parish, or Spanish hymnity would cut out another half. Or if we sang something in Navajo, most people wouldn't know what was going on. I only know one Navajo hymn. Yeah, so a lot of people would be very lost, right? Whereas something that is truly universal, not because we choose it, but because the church presents it to us as as a preferred option, that makes it universal and and truly Catholic.

SPEAKER_01

So getting back, you said that after communion there's an opportunity for like a hymn type type music. Are there other opportunities in the Mass for hymns?

SPEAKER_02

That's the only use of the word hymn in the entire germ. Um now there is some debate because there are four options at each time for an antiphon, and the last one says something like another appropriate chant. Uh, but to my mind, since hymn is actually used in one place and not in the Those ones. It would seem there are specific things, other types of chant or things like that that would be preferred.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell So what about uh the recessional or is it as we're leaving the church?

SPEAKER_02

Aaron Powell So the church doesn't really actually say anything about the recessional, it says we're done, go on, go to the gospel. Uh but there is some leeway there.

SPEAKER_01

I guess that I guess that goes to your point of like, hey man, liturgy's over. Uh you know, go go in pe go in peace and then do whatever you want. And as you're as you're leaving the leaving the church, sing whatever praise and worship you want to do.

SPEAKER_02

No, you know, I think that is a beautiful way to help teach people uh but keep some of the things that they're used to, right? Yeah. There are there are a couple places like after communion or as people are leaving, where you can have appropriate hymns. Hymns that are theologically sound, that's very important. But uh if you're trying to introduce the propers, or if you're having that, you can also have a couple places where people will have that familiarity with with some good hymnity.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's a you just mentioned um, and I just thought back to something you wrote about how in order for it to be sacred, it also has to be beautiful. And it has to be, I mean, it's not just enough that it has the words of scripture, it must also be beautiful, and you had some other requirements um for for kind of sacred music. Is there anything else? I mean, what what does you said it sets it apart from worship, consecrated? Um, what else kind of sets something apart for worship? You said made for worship.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think even just with that, right, sacred music is sacred, so it is something that is unique to what we do in the liturgy. Uh it's not, as I said, something you're gonna hear at the seventh inning stretch at a baseball game. It's not what you're gonna hear at a concert, even a good Christian music concert, right? It's something specifically set aside for the proper uh public worship of God in the liturgy. And then as music, there is an art to it. So there is a wide range of beautiful music, whether that be a simple melody of plain chant or something like Mozart's Requiem, right? There's a huge variance in those two things, but they're both beautiful in their own way. But for something to be beautiful, according to St. Thomas, right, it would have to be unifying, true, and good. And those all, I think we may experience one of those more at one time than another, but if all those are there, that truly can make it something beautiful and enriching, and not just on a personal level or on a level of preference, but uh as as a for a parish community for the church as a whole.

SPEAKER_01

So also this week you go into the Curier and the Gloria. Um Kira is Greek and Gloria is Latin. Um what what is sort of the idea around those? Because those are the, if I'm is that getting my terminology right, those are the commons of the mass, or those are common. The ordinary. So how do you are the should those be sung? Should those be sung in English? Those be sung in Latin? I mean, what's your thoughts on that?

Where Praise Music Fits

SPEAKER_02

So the the ordinary are the parts that are usual in every mass. So obviously we don't have a gloria every Sunday, but it's one of the parts that wouldn't change when it comes up, as compared to an intro, which can be different every day. The Curier, the Gloria, the Sanctus Annu's Day, those prayers are there very regularly, same text all the time. Uh similarly with the Our Father, the Creed, these are all part of the ordinary. Um the church has a preference for all of the all of the faithful knowing the ordinary parts, uh, even in Latin. Um, that doesn't mean we can't use them in English, but there should be a familiarity. For example, if someone goes on pilgrimage to Rome, they should be able to still participate in those liturgies, where especially at the Vatican, they do a lot of that in Latin. Um, or if you have a big group of a bunch of different people from different places, having something common to all of us, our patrimony is Latin, is very helpful. But here, right, there may not be as much need for Latin, but it's still good for us to know it because it also puts us in communion with thousands of years of saints and and people that have prayed before us. Um now that doesn't mean we can't learn in English. We use this, we alternate here in the parish, right? Sun one Sunday's Latin, one Sunday's English. Uh, but it's good for people to know those spoken and chanted.

SPEAKER_01

I was gonna say there's actually really is something beautiful about that when um, you know, if I'm going to mass in Mexico with some of my friends down there and they sing the sanctus. I didn't know most of the rest of the mass, but hey, I know the sanctus a lot. And or in like you said in Rome, you it's it's just an incredible. You go to St. Peter's and um I mean, all at least every every like proper mass I've been to, or every, every uh not proper mass, every every major mass I've been to in St. Peter's has always had, yeah, the Curier, the Sanctus, um, the Agnus Dei, those are always on everyone I could think of has been in Latin, I'm sure they do it sometimes not, but they're all in Latin. And there is something very universal about it, is that even when I don't know what's going on, I know where we are, and there is at least that one part that I can participate in.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. In in those moments you can say, oh, there's something familiar here where I can pray from the heart.

SPEAKER_01

So participating um in the mass kind of puts me in mind of the sep second topic I wanted to talk with you about today, which is relationship, because participating in the mass is one way I think in which we have a relationship with God. But um, I also want to talk about how do we have a relationship with others, first with our immediate family, in my case with my spouse and my children, um, but then also the greater parish. Like what builds up relationship both in our families and in our parish?

Parish Formation And Pushback

SPEAKER_02

Well, human communion, all in one. Well, the first is having communion with God. If we don't have a un uh a relationship with Him, no matter how hard we try, we may have facile relationships with other people, but it has to be related, uh rooted in a proper relationship with God. Much like the cross, right? If the if the vertical beam is not there, the horizontal beam will not stand. We can't have brotherhood with men without fatherhood of God. So the that has to be there first. Um, that's essential for everything. But from that, you know, we have to take into account all sorts of things personality, um, levels of formation, like all of these kind of things that we implicitly do when we meet people. We're not necessarily thinking in those terms, which is probably good. The conversation would still out. But making time for people, I think, is the most important. Much like with God, we have to make time for prayer. You have to make time for for dates with your spouse, you have to make time uh to have uh a tea party with your girls and all these different kinds of things, right? It can look different in every situation, but the first thing is to make that time to acknowledge the beauty of the other person by simply wanting to spend time with them. Beyond that, you have to learn how you give love, how you receive love, how other people receive love and give love. That's important. But uh if that time isn't there, it's not really gonna matter what else you learn about them. So I think that's the one of the most essential. And then from that, you can, you know, in a in a healthy way experiment. How does this friendship work? What do we like doing together? Preferences, we were talking about that. That can come in very handy for building friendship, building relationship. Um, what do we like doing together? Commonality, right? I think that's what C.S. Lewis said about friendship. That you meet a friend and you realize, oh, I'm not the only one. Uh they also like weird mid-century, 16th-century uh history historical fact or something. Um anything like that can be the beginning of a friendship, but it does have to progress. And so that time spent, especially in prayer, can help the friendship, the relationship to grow. And then it keeps it rooted in God.

SPEAKER_01

And I think uh as you were saying that, something that crossed my mind was it doesn't just, it's not just enough to spend time. It has to be authentic. Right. I mean, if you are spending time with someone and you feel like this person is not actually showing them their true self to me, right? They're playing some game or they have some other motivation to be here at this moment, then it doesn't matter how much time you spend with them. If they feel you're being inauthentic, you're never going to build a relationship.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I'm I'm sure you see that with your kids, right? If you're on your phone the whole time and they're trying to show you something, they eventually they'll stop because they realize dad doesn't want to see me right now. I'm not saying you do that. But or worse, they'll just start screaming their head off and saying you're not listening to me. Makes for a very different time spent. But that's a a simple analogy that we can all relate to, that we can be with someone but not be with somebody. Um, and so that time does have to be uh authentic.

Beauty, Truth, And Sacred Music

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's right. That's really good. And I think that's something I'm what I'm going on. I lose track sometime. 13 years of marriage, I think this will be our 14th year. So eight kids 14 years later. Um, we've been all over the place. And I think that um something that probably took us a good 10 years before we really started learning, before we learned our lesson was what does that mean to be with the other person and authentically be with the other person? And and how do you how do you put God, how do you first have your relationship with God, like you said, and your identity in God. Um, if you don't have that solidified, then you're not going to be able to be authentic with the other person. And I think that that's something I definitely struggled with is um, you know, I never, I I think we it took me a long time, and it wasn't until I really got serious about my spiritual life that I really felt like, oh, now I could be authentic with my wife. It doesn't always mean it's perfect. We f we we have our issues as I'm sure as everybody else does, but having that spiritual grounding helps. And you know, I mean, maybe some we can end with uh some ideas of how to authentically spend time with them. Like I I think of something that you and Father Keller do at the cathedral is every Sunday you have vespers in the evening. And uh we've got we've got to get back in the habit of it. But for a while there, Rachel and I, our date night was to go pray Vespers with with you and Father Keller, then we go out to uh go out to the All Rancho uh lounge afterwards and have a margarita together. It was a quick and simple date night, but it put God centered in even in our date, and that was awesome. It was it was a way for us to be authentic with each other and and participate in it. Um any other ideas on things like that? I mean, you're not you're not married, but I think you've uh you've any ideas of how you can be authentic with your spouse?

SPEAKER_02

So one I think we have to keep in mind authentic doesn't mean every time you're with somebody is going to be this deep, emotive revealing of your souls. Right. It can be something simple and fun. It can be something enjoyable like a game or trivia night or something. But like you said, starting with God, even if it's a simple prayer or doing vespers, um, and then going to do something you both enjoy is is plenty good and then some. Um it doesn't have to be something new and exciting every time, right? You I mean, you're not dating to to see if you're gonna get married anymore. So you don't need to continue these big things uh that early lovers can. You know each other, you can be honest with each other, you can just be with each other, and you already know what you enjoy. Um but I think it's more of an overarching thing. Uh Saints Basil and Gregory have always been a model of friendship in the church. Their feast day is January 2nd, and one of them, I think it was St. Gregory, speaking of their friendship, said uh they were always trying to outdo each other in virtue. And I think that if that's the basis of a friendship, it will go far. Uh not trying to outdo each other and one-up each other, but trying to be virtuous and rejoicing when the other one's more virtuous than you. Not because I'm less than, but because they're they're moving towards God, they're moving towards the good. Um, and I think if there's a holy competition in virtue, whether it be in a marriage or in a friendship, that's gonna do a lot of good for the for the uh for the relationship. And so if you're working on virtue, you're gonna go well.

The Ordinary: Kyrie And Gloria

SPEAKER_01

That's great, Father. That's really good. Um also humility. I think what something has struck me as you're saying that is you have to have humility and you also have to re recognize it's easy to see the flaws in the other person. It's more helpful to remember your own flaws and remember that none of this is possible without the grace of God. I think that that's been uh a hard a hard-learned lesson for me, um, but has really led to some fruitful authenticity with my spouse and my and my children. Um, okay, last question, Father. Since we talked so much about music, um what praise and worship music? Do you have any recommendations right now on some praise and worship music to listen to, not inside the mass?

SPEAKER_02

I've really been enjoying Josiah Queen's music lately. I just came across this stuff a few weeks ago, I guess, but I've found a lot of good uh rhythms and beats and melodies, but also a lot of good biblical truth. It's very foundational and very um biblically based. So I've enjoyed that. And it's good music too. It's uh one of my troubles that I had when it growing up with praise and worship music was I just didn't like it musically, but this has been very good music.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's the that's kind of the joke, right? Those that can't make it in the traditional genres go into the Christian music genre. Well, that's sad. But so that's good. So that's good. Josiah Queen, we'll have to check check him out. And I mentioned Brother Isaiah. I think he's another another great one that people should check out. Um I think that's all we have for today, Father. Would you mind closing us off with a prayer? Sure.

SPEAKER_02

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Almighty God, may everything that we do, every thought of our minds, every desire of our hearts redound to your praise and your glory, that with our whole selves we may give ourselves to you who have given yourself to us through Christ our Lord. Amen. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_01

Amen.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you, Father. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for watching this episode of Christerocast. For more information on the Christeros or to join the movement, check out our website at theCristeros.org. That's the Christeros with an S.org. There you could find our daily reflection series as well as many of our publications and articles. Thank you for watching, and viva Christore.