CristeroCast

Stop Attending Mass. Start Praying It.

• Aequitas • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Ever feel like you’re clocking in at church… and clocking out unchanged?

This week on CristeroCast, we sit down with Father Mitchell Brown, STL in liturgical theology, to recover what the Mass actually is: not something we attend, but a prayer we enter.

The Eucharist is Christ’s own prayer to the Father — and we are invited into it. Not as spectators. Not as consumers. But as sons.

Father Brown takes us back to the beginning: identity before mission. Just as Christ’s public ministry flowed from the Father’s declaration at His baptism, so too our mission must flow from knowing who we are in Him.

From there, we get practical:

  • How to bring your real joys, fears, and burdens into the Mass
  • Why silence is not empty space but training for friendship with God
  • How to pray the liturgy using the movements of Lectio Divina
  • Why setting one clear intention can transform your Sunday
  • How to focus on one part of the rite each week and go deeper

We talk about Lent as spiritual training — realistic penances, weekly recalibration, and adjusting zeal with prudence.

We get concrete about embodiment:

  • Why deliberate signs of the cross matter.
  • Why genuflection isn’t choreography.
  • Why even how we dress forms the soul.

And we reclaim beauty. Giving God our best isn’t luxury — it’s love.

If you’re ready to stop going through the motions and start entering the source and summit of our faith, this episode will challenge and equip you.

Set one intention for your next Mass. Pray it. Then see what changes.

Viva Cristo Rey.

Welcome And Liturgy Joke

SPEAKER_01

There's an old joke that you may or may not have heard. It was all over in seminary, especially when I started lit started studying liturgy. But it's easier to negotiate with a terrorist than a liturgist because the terrorist will negotiate. To which I would often respond, that's right. I'm not going to negotiate the sovereign worship of God.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to episode one of Christero Cast. My name is Patrick Mason, and I'm your host. And with me today is Father Mitchell Brown of Sacred Art Cathedral in Galvan, New Mexico. Welcome today, Father. Thank you, Patrick. So, Father, I'm always wondering what you have an STL at the end of your name. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01

So it's a license in sacred theology. It's the ecclesiastical equivalent of a master's degree.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. And uh you've been at Sacred Art Cathedral for how long?

SPEAKER_01

Math. Uh since uh 2019, right before the pandemic.

SPEAKER_02

Great. Well, we uh we wanted you to come here today. Uh you know, we're uh the official podcast of the Christeros, a new movement of Catholic men, and uh you've been helping us out a lot with that. And our first uh publication was actually something that you wrote called Praying the Mass in Lent. And we have I have my copy with me right here, and we have a copy in the background, and you can order them on Amazon, but we also have a daily reflections podcast where we've been going through it. Uh why don't you tell us a little bit about this book that you've read, Father?

SPEAKER_01

So my STL, my degree was in liturgical theology, which is basically the study of how what we pray affects what we believe and shows us the truth of what we believe. And so uh in preparing for Lent last year, I thought it'd be really helpful for people to know how to pray through Mass because too many people come to Mass, they show up, they go through the emotions, and they leave. But there are so many saints that talk about the beauty and the power of the Eucharist and of the Mass, and that if we enter into it properly, we become saints. We are transformed. But too many of us don't experience that. And so I figured we need to have something where people can read something simple every day so as to enter more into the mass, into what it is, into the mystery, into the power of the Eucharist. And so this particular book was the fruit of last year's Lent, just going through very, very slowly, step by step, day by day, through all the parts of the Mass, beginning with preparation, ending with Thanksgiving, so that people can devoutly pray the Mass and not just go through the motions with it.

SPEAKER_02

So you you mentioned a lot in prayer, and I mean, we always talk about prayer, but maybe you can uh expound on what is prayer exactly? What does it mean to pray the mass? You know, I think a lot of people maybe when we think of, oh, we attend mass, we go to mass, what does it mean to actually pray the mass?

SPEAKER_01

Sure. So St. Teresa says that prayer is a close sharing between friends. And some people would obviously apply that to personal prayer, maybe when I'm meditating or praying with scripture, praying the rosary, for example. But I'm guessing fewer people apply that to liturgical prayer, public prayer like the Mass, because there are a lot of prescriptions and rules that we have to follow. So they may not experience that same kind of personal, intimate moment of prayer. But that's ultimately what it is, because the Mass is Christ talking to his Father and receiving from his father and giving back and teaching us through the Mass to do that. And so praying the Mass is using the words of the church, the words of Scripture, the prayers of the church to teach us how we are to engage with the Father. And then, of course, that can affect our own personal prayer, our own meditations. But in those moments of prayer and praise and thanksgiving and gratitude, intercession and petition, all of those things that are there at Mass are teaching us to converse with the Father, to speak to Christ like a friend, to receive the inspirations of the Holy Spirit. So these moments of prayer are prayer par excellence because it's not just me going to pray, it's Christ praying to the Father and allowing us to enter into that conversation. So it's the highest form of prayer, it's the high point of prayer. But we also engage in ourselves bringing everything that we have to it. So if we have uh a difficulty in the family or we just got a promotion or something good or bad in our life, we're bringing that to the conversation so that the prayer is it is personal. Even though it's liturgical, it's formal. We're bringing those personal aspects to it to dialogue with God about them.

SPEAKER_02

So when we were looking to start the Christeros movement, you and I met a lot and we talked about different things, and um we sort of had an idea around um uh uh praying, living, thinking, serving, like some of the things that would make up what a Catholic man should do. And I think originally I did not have prayer at the beginning of that list. And you very uh adamantly told me prayer needs to be first. You always need to have prayer first. Can you maybe talk a little bit about that? Like, why is it why is prayer so important to not just praying the mass, but just like your everyday life? Like, what is the importance of prayer to a Catholic man today in his everyday life?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's especially for modern American men, we think we need to just strong arm our way through things or get things in a certain order before we can present them to somebody else, especially to God. But the fact of the matter is, as we hear in many prayers at Mass, everything comes to us from the Father of Lights. St. James says that, a number of prayers say that. We receive everything from him. And if we are going to make any sort of return to him, it's already gonna be by his grace. So starting with prayer helps us to receive already what he's giving us and to remember that it's not us that can do anything, it's all him. So prayer is absolutely essential, and without that, we're gonna be doomed. So to start something with prayer, whether that be simply our day, a new endeavor, uh, writing a book, whatever it might be, if that prayer is not there, we're relying on our own strength, which will fail. But if we start and continue and end with prayer, it's relying on the strength of God, which endures forever.

SPEAKER_02

So I've I don't know if this is a new theological movement or if it's just a restatement of an old theological movement, or um, or if it's not even a restatement, if it's always been in the church. But in recent years, um, with a lot of friends and on podcasts, I I hear the CFRs on Poco Poco talking about a lot is um identity, relationship, and mission. And that is sort of central for the Cristeros idea, too, is that you have to start with identity, your identity as a son of the Father, your identity as a brother to Christ, your identity as a son of our Mother Mary, in the Cristeros case in in the in the guise of Guadalupe. Um is that I mean, it what's the relationship, I guess, to prayer and identity? Is that sort of it sounds like they're connected from what you're telling me?

SPEAKER_01

Definitely. We even see that in the life of our Lord, in his baptism, before he's done or said a single thing, he's not worked a miracle, he's not preached or done an exorcism, he goes into the water, he ascends from the water, and the father says, This is my beloved son, proclaiming for everyone that was able to hear his true identity. And from that, he's able to go combat the devil in the desert. And from that, he's able to go do all of the wonderful things he was able to do. But he didn't start that mission until he had uh until his identity had been publicly proclaimed. And of course, in his divinity he knew that, but his humanity was reaffirmed in that truth. And the same has to be true for us. If we start with mission, we're going to be hollowed out at some point and we're going to be giving something we don't have. If we're trying to help men know who they are, but we don't know who we are ourselves, we're going to lead be the blind leading the blind. So we have to have the identity there first as sons of God, men of the church. Um, and then of course involving our vocations. But it all it's all rooted in that baptismal identity, our relationship with the Father through Christ. And from that can flow all of the good things in relationship and mission.

The Mass As Source And Summit

SPEAKER_02

And so it sounds like the point of this book and the point of the mass being the prayer, I guess that's when you hear of the source and summit of our faith. That is our highest form of conversing with God as it were. If prayer is conversing with God, the highest form of that conversation is that participation in the mass.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I often think of the mass as a mountain, um, which is biblical and it's it's theological, but even that particular phrase, the source and summit, if you think of a a wonderful oasis on the top of a mountain, from which flow the springs of the waters of life, but back to which we return over and over to be renewed and refreshed in that water, that's what the mass is. That's what the Eucharist is. And if we start there, we can go into our day, into our week, and then we return there for refreshment and new strength to go back and deal with the things that happen in everyday life. Um and so having that formation in how to pray the Mass, but also just an understanding of what it is we're doing when we sit, stand, and kneel, when we say this prayer, when we make that gesture, when we do these things, um helps us to appreciate that oasis a bit more. And it it can even help it to uh refresh us for a longer time, if you will, so that it's not, like I said, just going through the motions, but we're actually intentionally receiving the gift from the Lord and intentionally giving ourselves back to Him.

The Role Of Silence In Worship

SPEAKER_02

So going through this, we're now in the first full week of Lent and going through this book uh daily, uh one of the things that struck me is uh your various emphasis on silence, too. Um, that prayer does not, and I actually just thought of the, I don't know what day was it, I don't know if it was a daily mass or if it was the Sunday Masses, that you should not babble like the pagans. Um that's always been one of my favorite readings, don't babble babble like the pagans. Um, but that actually, you know, use the prayers of the church, the mass, the the formal prayers that we have, but also use silence both before mass and during mass and after uh communion. I mean, can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the saints talk about silence being the language of God, which can make it very difficult to hear him because we're used to hearing so many things. We're bombarded by so much noise all the time. But when we finally get to the church or we we enter into some sort of prayer and it's silent, if we're so used to that noise, we're going to miss the voice of God. So we have to spend time accustoming accustomizing ourselves, acclimating to that silence. And that starts with when we get to the church. It starts on the way to church, even, right? Am I with children it can be a bit difficult to get am I trying to have some sort of silence on the way to mass when we get there? Am I rushing in at the last minute or late and and all frazzled? Or am I at least taking a few moments to recognize I'm in the presence of God? Now I'm doing something different. I'm not just going to the store or the post office, I'm here in the presence of God. And then throughout the liturgy, there are a number of moments where the church has silence to allow us some space, some breathing room to recognize what it is we've just heard, what it is we've just done, what God is still doing. And the more we take time for that silence, the easier it is to hear God's voice and how he specifically speaks to us. So that silence is essential because that's where God truly speaks to us.

Building Habits Of Daily Prayer

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, I as you know, I have eight children, 12 to three months. And I'll say my 18-month-old is the loudest thing that I've ever I think the bishop was uh right after his homily on Sunday, she decided now is the time to scream her head off in the middle of ass. So yeah, silence can be tough. But actually, something that uh our mutual friend Father Keller said once that I thought was really helpful, is silence does not necessarily mean external silence. It doesn't mean, you know, you can't, I can't prevent my 18th-month-old from screaming her loudest into my ear and deafening me. But I can internally um silence my anxieties, silence my fears, even silence my desires or my joys or whatever, and just just leave myself open to the voice of God. No matter what's going on externally, um, I can at least internally do my best to silence, to have silence and to listen to God. Do you have any kind of uh practices that help you in in that silence?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, sure. Yeah, so I think there are a few things to keep in mind. External silence promotes internal silence. So whether it be personal prayer or uh liturgical prayer, turning off devices, turning off your phone, um, not only for your sake in that case, but for everyone else around you if your phone rings, uh, those kind of things where you're not worried about distractions from notifications or whatever can be very helpful because we're attuned to those things uh just by our modern way of living. So if you turn it off or leave it in another room to pray, that's gonna make a world of difference, not having that your ear to something else that besides the Lord. Um, I think as I said before, we also have to prepare ourselves to pray. We can't just all of a sudden enter in it, it takes a while to meet the living God. And even in the structure of our church, when you walk in the back of the church, there's the small narthex, which is symbolic of moving from the profane to the sacred, moving from the worldly to the holy. And we have to have that when we come to church, hopefully early, so that we have a moment to recognize the difference of what we're doing. And so that's something very important. But I think too, it can be helpful to express all of the things that are disturbing your interior silence in your prayer. And so if you come in and say, Lord, this is my heart right now, these are the things that are worrying me. This is the thing that is distracting me. I haven't eaten today, uh, I didn't sleep well last night. Then you can express that to somebody who will know and hear it and care about it. And it's going to be way better than you trying to avoid those things uh in your prayer by at least giving them some space and giving them to the Lord.

SPEAKER_02

No, that's that's really interesting. I mean, it is difficult sometimes to do too, even though it's sort of one of those things like where I know what I'm supposed to do, but actually doing it is is is hard.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it is something we have to practice, right? Like if you're learning a new skill, that you're not going to do it overnight. This is a lifelong practice. But you have to start at some point. And so even if it's just some small thing, or even throughout your day, just taking five minutes here or there for silence of thinking you're in the presence of God because you are, or um, you know, trying to eat a meal by yourself if you don't have a family or whatever, without looking at your phone or or doing something like that where you're intentionally having a moment of silence. Not gonna even just be on a walk through the neighborhood. Uh those little things do add up over time.

Realistic Lenten Penance And Check‑Ins

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So the the whole idea behind the Christer's too is like we didn't want to be an organization. We didn't want to be a program, like a particular program, or um even a content uh delivery service or whatever it is, or content creation uh organization. What we wanted to do was be a movement and centered in prayer throughout the day. I was just thinking, as you said, when you're on your walk or whatever. And so we start with a morning offering. Um, so you start your day off with you know, dedicating your life and yourself to God, and then throughout the day, praying to the Holy Spirit, praying to Mary, um, uh, you know, praying the anvilist or the rosary or whatever it might be, and then ending your day uh with an examination of constant, a nightly examine. Um, and then also throughout the day, just entrusting everything you have to to Jesus through Mary. I think that that habit building is really important. Like that it's not just a matter of, oh, I'm gonna pray this today and that tomorrow. Like having that habit every day uh really helps you develop your your prayer life.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And it has to be realistic, you know, whether it be New Year's or Lenten resolutions, the reason people fall off by day two or three is because they pick something that either doesn't really make a difference or matter much, or on the other hand, they they pick something that's unrealistic, right? I'm gonna fast for 40 days entirely and never eat food. That's unrealistic for all of us except the Son of God. Um, but if you pick goals, whether for prayer or learning discipline or practicing silence, that are actually applicable to your life, things that you are capable of doing in your state of life, that's going to be much more possible and it's going to be much more encouraging because you're not going to be failing over and over.

Practical Ways To Pray Mass Better

SPEAKER_02

I think of my nine-year-old boy who you know who serves for you and is so skinny that he's not even on the charts for a nine-year-old. And we sometimes worry, but the doctor's like, no, he's just really, really skinny, takes after his grandfather. And he wanted to not eat lunch any day of Lent. He's nine years old. And me and my wife both told him, like, no, you are too tiny. You won't, you can't get through two hours before you start getting hangry. Like, you are going to eat lunch. And he goes to school at Sacred Heart School by by your parish and uh or by our parish. And uh he's decides he's not gonna eat lunch anyway. And Sister Thomas Aquinas, the principal, says, like, no, you're going to eat lunch. You're too skinny. So having something realistic to your state of life is is good. Um and I think this is a good segue to um you you're in your book on the first Saturday of week one, the first Saturday of the first full week, you have a check-in. And um, you know, the first question is pretty obvious. How have your Linton disciplines been going? Um, and I th I just think of your second question there is have they been too much, too little? Is it unrealistic, or do you need to ingest anything? And you say, if so, that's fine. Can you talk a little bit about that? I mean, I think a lot of us always I mean, maybe it's just the Catholic culture or whatever it is, you think of like I made a Linton resolution, and if I did not stick to that Linton resolution perfectly, I probably need to go to confession and I might be going to hell or whatever it might be. But can you talk a little bit about what I mean? To me, that was actually kind of surprising to say that, oh, no, you could adjust your Linton exercises.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. Um, so if you were following some sort of exercise regimen and you realized you started off with too much weight, it would be very good for you to stop doing that before you hurt yourself. At the same time, if you start off with too little weight, you're not going to actually progress or grow. Um, so you have to adjust along the way. And the same thing with penance. Penance is a spiritual exercise program. It's an asceticism. And it's not just about suffering, which I think we as Catholics tend to think of it that way. Yeah, I'm here to take up the cross and suffer for 40 days, and then we can rejoice at Easter and have some chocolate. Um, that's a very, very simplistic view of it. All of this is about our relationship with God and the church. And part of that, of course, is taking up our cross. But if we pick penances that just crush us and make us miserable, not only will that not help our relationship with God, it will probably make other people around us miserable, which is not helpful either. Um, but at the same time, if we just give up something that we're not doing anyway, we're not going to grow from that. And so it's helpful. I I think in the book on the first and maybe third or fourth Saturdays, I have these check-ins just to say, are you actually benefiting from this? Because you can course correct. You don't have to stay beholden to the thing you started on Ash Wednesday, especially if it's not actually helping you grow or it's hurting you. Um so for example, if if your son was fasting and started passing out at school and had to go to the hospital, that would not be good for him or anyone else around him. And he would have to course correct, even outside of Lent. But I think similarly in our spiritual life, we have to have that flexibility to know is the Lord calling me to something? Is this something helping me in my relationship with him? And if not, we have the freedom and even the requirement to change that.

SPEAKER_02

Interesting. Yeah, that's good. So I mean turning back to the mass and prayer. Um we're again at the end of the first week, the first full week of Lent. Um what do you think so? People have been going through this book, they've been learning more about it. What are some practical things they could do maybe this week, now that they've kind of started to learn how to pray the mass and um that they could do this week to kind of put into practice what they've learned? I mean, I guess go to mass an extra time or two or so.

Lectio Divina Applied To Liturgy

SPEAKER_01

I think whether they're going to daily mass or just the Sunday Masses, two things that I think can be very helpful. The first is having a mass intention. Everyone sees in the bulletins, you know, the the published mass intention for which I'm required to offer a particular mass. Um, but everyone can have an intention for mass. And they can be praying for the living, for the dead in Thanksgiving, in honor of a saint, in honor of the sacred heart. Um, anything that they would like to bring to the to the mass, they don't have to stick with what's in the bulletin. So in that sense, they're offering themselves by offering their intentions and their petitions. And that can make a world of difference when you know you're offering this particular mass, this particular communion for someone in your family that's sick or that's suffering, um, or for thanksgiving for something. Um, because we have that connection in a particular way. We know that I'm here right now for Aunt Betty who's sick with cast cancer or something. And then beyond that, um picking a different prayer every day to perhaps consider a bit more deeply. Right? We we have Lexio Divina for scripture and you can do something similar with with the Mass, especially because most of the Mass is scripture or at least scriptural. Um so if this next time you go to Mass, you really focus on the sign of the cross and consider it's not just at the beginning and end of Mass, their crosses all through the Mass and see how they apply in different moments or what it means in those different moments, which hopefully this book will help with that kind of thing. Or thinking about the Sanctus, the holy, holy, holy. What leads up to it, what comes from it. Um, and that's not just to be an intellectual exercise. It can be helpful to uh focus the attention to know what I'm focusing on today. But it can also just help you day by day, you're focusing on something new and trying to glean some beautiful, gracious uh fervor and fruit from that.

SPEAKER_02

So you uh mentioned this is a little bit of a side, but you mentioned Lexia Divina. I mean, I think I might know what that is, but can you just explain a a little more like what is Lexia Divina?

SPEAKER_01

So Lexia Divina is the ancient practice in the church by which we are meditating on scripture. And Pope Benedict in his document Verbum Domini, I think paragraphs eighty-six and eighty seven, talks about four questions that can help us pray with scripture, and we can use those same questions to pray with um with the mass, with events in our own life even. And so the first is what does the text say? What does it mean in and of itself? The second is what does it say to me as an individual, but also a member of the church? Um so how what is sticking out to me? What is it, what is it reson, how does it resonate in my heart? And then the third is what do I say in response? And this is where the prayer comes in, right? That the the Lord is speaking to me through this prayer, through this text, through this scripture, and now I'm wanting to respond in a particular way with perhaps confusion, with anger, with joy, with rejoicing and thanksgiving, whatever it might be. And then the fourth is what a change of life does this require of me? So whether that be again a verse of scripture or a prayer from mass, those four questions can be very helpful to enter more in fully into them instead of just letting them uh pass through our ears and and never hear them again.

SPEAKER_02

No, it's in it's it's really interesting. I'm thinking I mean, in some ways, you know, it's it sounds very formal, right? Like what you're talking about is a very formal process for reading scripture, but that's very Catholic, right? I mean, it seems like there's so much form to to everything we do.

Bodies, Ritual, And Reverence

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, and it's it's I kind of think of it like Pirates of the Caribbean, that the pirate code is more of guidelines. That these are there to help give you a structure within which you can flourish. I see. Because if we don't have any sort of structure, we'll just sit there and wonder what the heck we're supposed to do. But those four questions, for example, if you are are meditating, for example, on the prodigal son, and you spend most of the time just reading the passage, you're reading scripture, so you're gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But if you spend most of your time meditating, what does it mean that he was prodigal? Why was he wanting to go away from his father? Why did the father wait for him? Why is the older son out upset and outside the house now, right? All those questions, if most of your time is sent in that portion of the prayer, that's also fine. If most of it is spent in the prayer portion where you're returning praise and thanksgiving and and questions back to God, you're praying. So that's not an issue either, right? Or if at the end you realize I'm the prodigal son and I need to change this, that, and the other thing in my life, Lord give me the grace to do that. So each of those steps, it's not that it's 15 minutes here, 15 minutes here. It's to give that structure within which you can flourish. And it's not static. It's very dynamic once you get used to it.

SPEAKER_02

It it almost strikes me, which I think a lot of things in the church strike me this way, is it is just a recognition of nature. So it's a recognition of what's already natural. Because what you just ran through, for example, with the prodigal son, that's something that by our human nature we might inherently do anyways. It's really just putting words to the something that we do. Maybe because we're made in the image and likeness of God, we naturally have this kind of these kinds of thoughts, these prayers, these reactions to the things that we do.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And the and all of those, you know, Catholics get bad rap for having a lot of rules. But rules help relationships, right? It with your kids, with your wife, right? There are rules in place to help the marriage flourish, rules in place so the kids know that you are the father. All of these kind of things. If those weren't there, your house would be anarchy. Yeah. And nobody well, some people do, but sane people don't get upset about that kind of stuff. And the same is true with God. We have to have rules to keep us in bounds. To the I I think it was Scott Hahn, right? That the the commandments help to maintain the covenant, the rules, the relationship. And those things are essential in our relationship with God. And it's the same with our prayer, with scripture, with the mass. The reason we have all of this is because the church over 2,000 years realizes human nature is weak and fallen and easily led astray. So we need to have this to help us pray aright.

Beauty Of Liturgy In Poverty

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, that's uh I'm thinking two things. One is confession. Um, I think whenever maybe you're if you're a new Catholic or just kind of questioning your faith or wondering about your faith, sometimes, you know, you anywhere you have Protestant friends, they say like, oh, I confess my sins. I confess my sins to God. You don't need to confess your sins to a man, but but Christ gave us that sacrament um through men, right? To confess your what sins you which sins you forgive or forgive and what sins you hold bound or held bound. And I would I'll say that, you know, just recognizing that we are both body and soul, when I go to confession and I tell another human being, there is not just the spiritual, I think, relief. There's the I the human kind of physical psychological relief too of like, oh, I I spoke outside and I talked to another human being. And I heard you are forgiven. Yeah, from another human being, right? I actually I didn't just think I heard a the voice of God in my head. I was like, no, I heard I heard the voice of God through um my brother or through my father in this case.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, and that's important with mass too, body and soul, right? We're never going to pray like angels because we will never be angels. Yeah. We don't become angels when we die. And so we have to pray with our body and mind. And so even something like on a Sunday Mass, for example, dressing up for Mass is important. It's not just a time-gone tradition. It helps us to recognize I'm dressing up for something important. And that can make a world of difference instead of showing up in flip-flops and shorts. Uh similarly, um, you know, using the postures and the gestures of mass and not just randomly going through them, right? If the sign of the clock cross looks like you're swatting a fly away, you're not going to be able to pray with that well. Um, so doing those things with the body intentionally, or a geniflexion, for example, right? It's not a curtsy. It's not just some tripping over the floor. It's an intentional bowing before God. And those simple intentionalities can make a world of difference for actually praying the mass well.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that and that remind that goes to the second point that I thought of when you were talking is liturgy, right? I mean, all all of this book, a lot of what you've spoken about today is is all and your your expertise is is in liturgy and how that liturgy draws us into our creator, into our father, into our brother and and in the mass. Um and you are, I will say, uh one of the the foremost experts on liturgy that I know. And I and I don't know if I could tell a little personal story about you, but I knew you since you were in high school. Um, and I remember when you came back from it might have even been junior seminary before you were in in in major seminary, and we were having a kind of a corporate communion mass with a bunch of men, and and this young, like 21-year-old uh uh kid comes out and you're directing all of us, like, okay, you're standing here, you're standing there. No, the cross goes before those. You are not going to go before the cross. And and it was and it was it was actually a great, it's a very striking memory that I have of you. Um but even now today, I think of when I go to your parish and um I and my you know, my three eldest children, my sons, all serve uh mass for you just about every Sunday. And we are the poorest diocese in the country. Um I I won't say just how little money we have, but it's not a lot. Um and yet, you know, I've traveled all over the world, uh, been to Rome, been to parishes all over the United States, Canada, and everything. And I mean this 100% sincerely that in the poorest cathedral, the poorest diocese in the country, I still think we have the most beautiful liturgy that I've ever been to. And I went to Thomas Aquinas College, which is a great faithful Catholic college with a beautiful liturgy, and they had an amazing choir singing chant in this beautiful chapel on campus. And we don't we have maybe some volunteer choir people every now and then, and we have our our organ player, but the liturgy in the cathedral, when I first moved back here to Gallup and I came back, and I'm not I'm not kidding, I was actually moved to tears because despite the kids yelling in my ear and everything else, the way the liturgy of the cathedral draws me in, and I think a lot of people in to the sacrifice of the mass is is amazing. And I think that you know, even the small things, um like you have all the altar servers when you are do when you are when you are in the middle of consecration, when you begin to say the words of consecration, when you bow your head um uh over the over the host, all of the altar servers who are lined up in front, you know, you have all of them come down for the songctus and they're facing you at the altar or facing Christ at the altar, I should say. Um, and uh they all bow their heads at the same time you bow your head over the words of consecration. I've noticed in the church, you probably don't notice because your head's bowed, and uh, is you never said anything, you never provided any instruction to the people. Um, you just except for the altar servers, you said, okay, you guys bow and I bow, right? Or you've or you provide instruction. Every time uh the name of Jesus Christ is said, you all turn to the tabernacle and bow. And I've noticed that in the rest of us, the for the rest of the con the congregation in the pews, now we're all doing it too. Every time when you bow during the consecration, we're all bowing during the consecration. Whenever time Jesus Christ is said, we all bow towards the tabernacle. And and it's kind of amazing just the the how natural it is.

SPEAKER_01

Um it's amazing those two things are things I've never even instructed the servers on. We're just picked up either, you know, the the missile tells me to bow at that point and they just follow the priests. And there's a there's a beauty in that. There's a naturalness to this is a moment of reverence. Um and I've I've decided not to correct the servers on that. Oh, that's a that oh that's absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_02

I honestly thought I was like, I've never seen that in any other parish. Because when you I mean, and our servers are pretty faithful. I mean, and we have anywhere from 10 to 15 servers every Sunday. They're pretty faithful young men. And they don't just bow, they like profound bow. I mean, you're talking that you know, we have the lantern kind of candle things. I'm worried sometimes they're gonna tip the candles over because they're they're bowing so low. And I always just assumed you instructed them. Yeah, those were two specifics I haven't that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01

There's an old joke that you may or may not have heard. It was all over in seminary, especially when I started lit started studying liturgy. But it's easier to negotiate with a terrorist than a liturgist because the terrorist will negotiate. To which I would often respond, that's right, I'm not going to negotiate the sovereign worship of God, the solemn worship of our heart of our Lord. Um, there are things that God wants us to do, and we must do them, otherwise, we're not going to have salvation. And at the same time, you mentioned the poverty. St. Francis said lady poverty does not enter the sanctuary. The saint known as il poverello, the the poor one, right, he knew that we still give the finest things to God, St. John Viani, who gave away everything he possibly could and barely ate potatoes every day, put the finest uh vessels and vestments for our Lord. Um, and I think you know this started with back with Father Keller when he was rector, uh, with a lot of things trying to emphasize the liturgy is the high point, and we put everything we can into that. And from that, we still have to go serve the poor, we still have to do a lot of things, but everything the best for God.

Closing Blessing And Resources

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that's that's that's amazing, Father. Um I uh I think we could probably talk about this for the next few hours, but this has been a really uh great conversation. And I hope that we'll have you back soon and we could continue to talk about maybe uh your your book some more and and the liturgy some more. Um I think that you're such a blessing to all of us and and and your book has been a real big blessing, I think, for a lot of the people that have uh bought it or been listening to it on the podcast. So thank you, Father, for all that. Thank you, Patrick. God bless you.

SPEAKER_01

And would you mind uh closing us out with a prayer, Father? In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Almighty God, in these days of Lent when we follow your son to the cross on Calvary, remove the sinfulness of our lives and fill us with your grace, your peace with the Holy Spirit, that we may follow you more fervently, and by your grace do all that is pleasing in your sight for your glory and our salvation through Christ our Lord.

SPEAKER_02

Amen.

SPEAKER_01

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Thank you, Father.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.com. The Cristeros app is available on the Apple app and Google Play Store. More information on the Cristeros can be found at theCristeros.org.